alt.gothic FAQ

This FAQ was created by Peter Wake, and is currently maintained by Ryan Watkins Please direct corrections and additions to vamp@csulb.edu.

This list is posted on a monthly basis to the alt.gothic news group, and is also available via anonymous FTP at ftp.maths.tcd.ie (mirrored at goth-ftp.acc.brad.ac.uk and in HTML format at VampLestat's Home Page.

Special thanx to the following for information provided within : 

 Peter Wake  (peterw@cs.man.ac.uk) John Mc Donagh      (mcdonghj@unix2.tcd.ie)
 Digitar          (digitar@io.org) Ian Grimstead   (I.J.Grimstead@cm.cf.ac.uk)
 Jeff Harmon (harmon@elia.epfl.ch) The Great Grendel-Khan (argent@iastate.edu)
 Sexbat  (sexbat@batt.demon.co.uk) Ace of Hearts   (uaceohrt@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu)
 petro@mcs.com                     Austen Jackson (Ozric@tentacle.demon.co.uk)

and others to numerous to mention.... 

Contents


Section: 1 Basics
=================

Subject: 1.1 What is a Goth?
Subject: 1.2 What the history of the goth movement?
Subject: 1.3 Is goth about religion?
Subject: 1.4 What does gothic music sound like?
Subject: 1.5 So what does the word 'goth' mean. 

Section: 2 Resources
====================

Subject: 2.1 What Gothic music lists exist?
Subject: 2.2 Where are the gothic FTP sites?
Subject: 2.3 Where can I find lyrics, pictures, etc for a goth band?
Subject: 2.4 What are some various Vampire related net resources?
Subject: 2.5 Where can I find this "Goth Test"?
Subject: 2.6 What are the mail addresses of some goth bands?
Subject: 2.7 What comics are Goth?
Subject: 2.8 Are there any good goth clubs in ? 

Section: 3 Various Trivia
=========================

Subject: 3.1 Is the Nefilim a spelling mistake?
Subject: 3.2 Where does the phrase Sisters of Mercy arise from?
Subject: 3.3 Are the Sisterhood the same as the Sisters of Mercy?
Subject: 3.4 What is the best black dye?
Subject: 3.5 What should I use to paint my jacket?
Subject: 3.6 How do I identify a net goth?
Subject: 3.7 What has Anne Rice written?
Subject: 3.8 Who is Storm Constantine?
Subject: 3.9 Any other interesting goth authors?
Subject: 3.10 Any interesting goth movies? 
Subject: 3.11 Who is Andrew Eldritch, Carl McCoy, Wayne Hussey, ...?
Subject: 3.12 What do Pre-Raphaelites have to do with goth?
Subject: 3.13 What is 'Snakebite'? 



Section: 1 Basics
=================


Subject: 1.1 What is a Goth? 

The term 'Goth' was used by Ian Astbury who described Andi Sex Gang as
a 'gothic pixie' and popularised by the UK music magazines New Musical
Express and Sounds (NME) and was used to describe a class of music. For
some people that music became the basis for a 'way of life'. They brought
their own backgrounds and interests along and a sub-culture was formed
and it took for itself the name Gothic. 

Subject: 1.2 What the history of the goth movement? 

NME and Sounds reputedly took the term Gothic from Siouxsie Sioux (of
the Banshees) who used it to describe the new direction for her band.
However the earliest significant usage of the term (as applied to music) was
by Anthony H. Wilson who was overcome by a rare moment of lucidity on a
1978 BBC TV program when he described Joy Division as Gothic compared
with the pop mainstream. Perhaps Joy Division (who he was managing) are
not what we now think of as Goth but it is possible that they are at the
source of the term. Bauhaus were labelled as Gothic as early as 1979 when
they released Bela Lugosi's Dead. 

The pop journalists were quick to latch onto the term and they applied it in
a nasty sort of pigeonholing way to a number of bands that were around in
the early 80s - most of which did not sound much like the Banshees (or
anyone else for that matter), the journalists were more concerned with
looks. The (Southern Death) Cult was foremost amongst these bands, like
the Banshees they wore lots of black and silver and had extreme black hair.
The Sisters of Mercy were also so labelled and when they split and Wayne
Hussey founded the Mission they carried their label with them, despite
being different musically. Finally The Fields of the Nephilim appeared and
they (perhaps) consciously and deliberately got themselves labelled as
Gothic despite looking and sounding quite different to what had previously
been labelled Goth. 

The fans of bands like the Sisters, Bauhaus and Siouxsie liked to dress up in
lots of black. The music they liked was something of a backlash against the
colourful disco music of the seventies. The Banshees were a punk band
before they mellowed and punk was brathing its last as Gothdom gathered
speed, and the so one could claim Gothdom grew out of punk. The music of
Joy Division, the Sisters and Bauhaus was angst ridden but all the hatred
was turned inwards and the music was typified by introspective lyrics. Many
of the new Goth followers were introspective too. Some were a bit confused
by the label and started to think that the label Goth was in some way
connected with the Victorian Gothic revival and Gothic horror and because
enough of them thought that eventually it became true. 

NME and Sounds were not oblivious to this and produced many hilarious
articles poking fun at the Goths amongst their readers. They said that being
Goth was about sitting around in circles on the floor of pubs (bars) smoking
a lot and talking about being a bat. Some readers of this list get angry at this.
Luckily most Goths have a good enough sense of humour to laugh at
themselves once in a while. The first generation Goths complain that
second and third generation Goths often seem to think that Gothdom is
about wearing the blackest black, with a lot of silver jewellery and looking as
thin and pale as possible. In common with their older bretheren they avoid
the crass comercialism of mainstream rock and gather together to share
their woes :-) They read Bram Stoker and Anne Rice and talk about being
vampires. They read H.P. Lovecraft and talk about the end of the world. 

The sounds that were described as Gothic were appearing in other countries
besides the UK in the late seventies, but I have yet to see any evidence that
they were using the word. (If you have any...) Currently Germany is the
bastion of Goth, where they are called Grufties. If German people are doing
a write up on the Goth scene there, please send me a copy. So that's how we
got where we are today. Today Goth is about music, literature, art and about
clothes. 

Subject: 1.3 Is goth about religion? 

Gothdom embraces all religions, all denominations and all races. Many
Goths are atheists and a sizable minority are new age spiritualists, Wiccans
and members of other alternative religious groups. There are Christian
Goths. Basically Goth is not about religion, but with the imagery of religion.
May goths wear crosses or ankhs, and there are many religious references in
goth songs, but it is not a religious movement. 

Goth uses religous imagery in some songs. Christian Death are big on this.
Bauhaus did a couple of tracks with religious imagery. The Sisters have a
quasi-religious name but this is ironic, their music shows that religion is
not Andrew Eldritch's main concern - he prefers politics. The Mission
(UK) were fairly 'new age'. Carl McCoy favoured shamanistic traditions and
gnostic revelation. Religious jewellery is often worn, particularly crucifixes
and ankhs. These are strong symbols with powerful subconscious effects.
Sometimes they are worn as an satirical statement, sometimes not. For
some it is just fashion. 

Subject: 1.4 What does gothic music sound like? 

Thanks to John Mc Donagh aka Nascent Virion for a list of what bands he
though typified the Gothic sound. Some may disagree, but this is a rather
decent representaion of GENERAL catagories. 

Original Goth: 

 o Bauhaus 
 o Christian Death 
 o Southern Death Cult* 
 o Joy Division (Sometimes had a Goth sound, didn't look very Goth) 
 o Sisters of Mercy 
 o Siouxsie and the Banshees 


Miscellaneous Goth: 

 o The Fields of The Nephilim**(Too new to be original, too old to be
   new) 
 o The Mission (UK) (Early stuff was considered Goth by the music
   press) 
 o Sex Gang Children 


Mellow Goth: 

 o Dead Can Dance 
 o Xmal Deutschland 
 o Danielle Dax (more poppy) 


Metal/Industrial Goth: 

 o Creaming Jesus (Metalish) 
 o James Rays Gangwar (Goth w/samples)
   (A lot of Goths listen to Ministry but they aren't really Goth) 


Experimental/Folky/Occult Goth: 

 o Current 93 
 o Death In June 
 o Sol Invictus 


New Goth: 

 o Nosferatu, Rosetta Stone (Sisters/Mission sounding bands) 
 o Shadow Project (Off shoot of Christian Death) 
 o Clan of Xymox (Synth, almost dancey) 

* Southern Death Cult (SDC) later split in all directions. Only SDC are
condsidered properly Gothic. However many of Southern Death Cult's
Goth followers remained true even when they entered their 'The Cult' glam
metal phase. 

** Fields of the Nephilim were so unlike previous Goth it is amazing that
they were ever considered Goth at all. Nonetheless they are one of the
definitive Goth bands and most Goths took to them instantly because of
their originality and talent. 

See "The Gothlist" by Corey for a much more complete list of goth bands.
See 'Subject: 2.2 Where are the gothic FTP sites?' for more detail on how to
get a copy. 

Subject: 1.5 So what does the word 'goth' mean. 

The word 'Goth' does indeed refer to a tribe of the indo-european kind.
The Goths slowly integrated into the melting pot of Europe and basically
disappeared. 

The word 'gothic' is first found in common usage in 1611, referring mainly
to an 'uncivilized lack of taste or education'. The people who built in the
'gothic' style would have never used this term. These people were monks or
artisans who worked for the church to build a land of Cathedrals from the
11th century on. They also built castles and other edifices. The 16th century
saw a large amount of turmoil with the reform and all. This opened up the
architecture field quite a bit. This new wave of artists looked back on what
they saw as a bland repetitive style of architecture as 'gothic'. Unfortunatly,
because of the shallowness of the learned men at that time, it stuck. It was
also referred to as Ogive - or the characteristic arch of this style - this word
is usually used by most politically correct historians. 

The fact is: Ogive architecture today is extremely inspiring and beautiful.
The nameless men who designed and built these works of grandor were very
talented and inspired. One merely has to look at the Cathedral of Chartres,
Paris, Amiens, Canterbury or any of the other edifices of this age to realize
irony of using 'gothic'. In fact, to augment the irony, the popular opinion
today is that much of the baroque architecture of the 17th and 18th
centuries is gaudy and flamboyant. 



Section: 2 Internet Resources
=============================



Subject: 2.1 What Gothic music lists exist? 

The Sisters of Mercy Electronic mailing list run by Pete French (-bat).
Send mail to dominion-request@ohm.york.ac.uk to ask to be added to the
list. Send postings to dominion@ohm.york.ac.uk. 

There is also a Fields of the Nephilim Electronic mailing list. Mail to
neph-request@wave.cerf.net to ask be added to the mailing list. The
address to post to the list is neph@wave.cerf.net 

ubject: 2.2 Where are the gothic FTP sites?

ftp.maths.tcd.ie:/pub/music/gothic. This site is maintained by Nascent
Virion , who will be graduating and leaving the
net in June. A mirror site at goth-ftp.acc.brad.ac.uk (143.53.1.4) has been
set up to contain all the info at ftp.maths.tcd.ie:/pub/music, as well as a
number of other goth resources, including various gothic lyrics,
discographies, faqs, images, and Corey's Goth List, etc can be found. Get the
README and INDEX files from the pub/music directory for the full
contents of the music area, which included guitar tabs, and other music
resources. When you FTP use 'anonymous' as the username and your email
address as the password. If you don't have FTP access mail to
ftpmail@decwrl.dec.com. 

There is also another gothic archive site in the United States by Peter Stone
(bat@cyberden.com) at cyberden.com. It contains much of the original
gothic archive site as of 12/93, as well as other new material. 

Subject: 2.3 Where can I find lyrics, pictures, etc for a goth band? 

There is a huge music archive available via anonymous FTP at 
ftp.uwp.edu:/pub/music. If a band isnt at the goth archive, it might very well
be at the main music archive. 

There are also a number of goth World Wide Web servers out there.

The Dark Side by VampLestat (vamp@csulb.edu) is at 
   http://gothic.acs.csulb.edu:8080/ 
Rob's Gothic Section is at 
   http://web.cs.nott.ac.uk/~rji/index.html 
The Sisters of Mercy Home Page by Ian Grimstead is at 
   http://www.cm.cf.ac.uk:/Sisters.Of.Mercy/ 
Flat Field Records is at 
   http://www.eskimo.com/~flatfld/ 

Subject: 2.4 What are some various Vampire related net resources? 

Go ask in alt.vampyres and check out the alt.vampyres FAQ file posted
there. 

Subject: 2.5 Where can I find this "Goth Test"? 

Its available via anonymous FTP at ftp.maths.tcd.ie in /pub/music/gothic/ as
'the_goth_test'. It can also be found in Take a Bite 1.0 - jokingly subtitled
'the net.goth handbook', which is also available at the same site.

Subject: 2.6 What are the mail addresses of some goth bands? 

Sisters of Mercy Information Service:

The Reptile House Ltd.
PO Box HP29
Leeds LS6 1LS
West Yourshire
England
The Nefilim Information Service: 

The Watchman
P.O. Box 17
Stevenage
Herts
SG2 0QX
England 

Rosetta Stone Information Service: 

Rosetta Stone
31 Ivanhoe Road
Aigburth
Liverpool
L17 8FX
England
Phone: +44 051 728 8998 

Subject: 2.7 What comics are Goth? 

Sandman - written by Neil Gaiman and published by Vertigo. Also various
offshoot projects: Books of magic, High Cost of Living (about his sister,
Death) etc. 

The Crow: 

 o 4 issue mini series published in 1989 by Caliber 
 o 3 issue mini series published in 1992 by Tundra 
 o The Crow TPB (Trade Paperback) reprints ALL Crow stories/art
   published in 1993 by Kitchen Sink Press ($15.95 US coverprice) 

Love and Rockets - (sort of punk/goth) by Los Bros Hernandez, published
by Fantagraphics. This is where the band name came from by the way. 

The Vampire Chronicles - Three different series - one for each of the first
three Anne Rice vampire books, adapted by hacks, published by Innovation.
OK only if you've already read the books. Anne Rice doesn't like them at
all. 

Stray Toasters - four issue mini series by Bill Sienkiewicz (pronounced as
Sin-KEV-itch) published by Epic. Inspiration for a Creaming Jesus song. 

Grendel - by Matt Wagner, published by Dark Horse (was published by
Comico). Some stories are fairly Gothic others are not. 

Sandman Mystery Theatre - by Matt Wagner, published by Vertigo. An old
golden age DC character revived. Full of atmosphere. 

Cerebus - by Dave Sim and Gerhard. Not strictly Gothic, but black and
white. Flight and Women have a great Sandman satire. 

Subject: 2.8 Are there any good goth clubs in ? 

There is a full list of internation clubs maintained by digitar
(digitar@io.org). Email him for a copy, or FTP 'GothClubs' from the goth
archive at ftp.maths.tcd.ie:/pub/music/gothic. There is also a hypertext
version at http://gothic.acs.csulb.edu:8080/~vamp/Gothic/clublist.html.
Please email in any additions you might have to digitar's list. 



Section: 3 Various Trivia
=========================



Subject: 3.1 Is the Nefilim a spelling mistake? 

This is the name for Carl McCoy's new (yet to appear) band. The rest of the
original Fields are now called Rubicon and have a new singer. They are no
longer considered Goth. 

Subject: 3.2 Where does the phrase Sisters of Mercy arise from? 

Andrew Eldritch chose the phrase as the name of this band from a Leonard
Cohen song of that name. The song may be referring to prostitutes as
'Sisters of Mercy'. There is also a religious order who are sometimes known
by that name. 

Subject: 3.3 Are the Sisterhood the same as the Sisters of Mercy? 

The Sisterhood was a one shot band created by Andrew Eldritch to stop
Wayne Hussey using the name when Hussey left the Sisters of Mercy. By
the way, 25000 pounds was not granted in a court case - it is merely the
advance budget that the Mission didn't get. 

Subject: 3.4 What is the best black dye? 

Synthetic dyes are best. The 'Ritt' dye rarely works well and tends to be
coloured, though it isnt available in the UK. There is a japanese
semi-natural dye (Ginsa?) which is not bad if you can get it. As for tips on
how to actually dye clothes with this:

Don't use a Washing machine. Get a big pot (no, not that one, I said a BIG
==========================================================================
POT. Put the object in that you wish to die, and fill it with enough
====================================================================
water to cover the object and then some. Remove the object. This is
===================================================================
done to make sure that when you put the article of clothing back in,
====================================================================
you don't die the stove.
========================


Put the pot on the stove and boil the water. The hotter the better.
===================================================================
Unfortunately it is difficult to get the water much above 212f (100c).
======================================================================
Add the Dye. Approxametly twice what the package says and stir (no,
===================================================================
not with your arm, and don't use the spoon that you stir spaghetti with
=======================================================================
either) add the garment. Boil for a while, turn off the heat and let cool.
==========================================================================
When the BIG POT is cool enough, put in a corner overnight. The next
====================================================================
day rinse the garment out with cold water as well as the pot. put the
=====================================================================
garment back in the pot and fill with vinegar. Let set a day or two, and
========================================================================
wash in cold water with about half the amount of laundry soap you
=================================================================
normally use.
=============


Subject: 3.5 What should I use to paint my jacket? 
===================================================


Acrylics are best. Clean the jacket with warm soapy water. Use a
================================================================
'flexible medium' if possible. If using Liquitex brand you may get away
=======================================================================
without. You can varnish with with clear acryclic coating to protect
====================================================================
further. 
=========


T-Shirts can be done above but the flexible medium is essential. This
=====================================================================
way is better than buying fabric paints. 
=========================================


Subject: 3.6 How do I identify a net goth? 
===========================================


The words net.goth in lower case should be written on them
==========================================================
somewhere. The jacket arm just below the shoulder is recommended by
===================================================================
Sexbat (but he may be teasing you - be warned :-) 
==================================================


Subject: 3.7 What has Anne Rice written? 
=========================================


For the best answer, you should read the newsgroup
==================================================
alt.books.anne-rice. Anne Rice is alive and well and writes
===========================================================
supernatural romance. Interview With a Vampire is her mort artistic
===================================================================
work but other books are all good readable stuff with strong themes. 
=====================================================================


The Vampire Chronicles: 
========================
   Interview With a Vampire 
   =========================
   The Vampire Lestat 
   ===================
   Queen of the Damned 
   ====================
   The Tale of the Body Thief 
   ===========================


She has also written: 
======================
   The Mummy or Rameses the Damned 
   ================================
   The Witching Hour 
   ==================


As well as a trilogy of bondage stories under the name of A.N.
==============================================================
Roquelaire - which are not gothic. Two 'romance' novels as Anne
===============================================================
Rampling, called Exit to Eden and Belinda, as well as a short story:
====================================================================
Master of Rampling Gate. 
=========================


Anne Rice's Vampire LeStat Fan Club
===================================
Vampire LeStat
==============
P.O. Box 58277
==============
New Orleans, Lousiana 70158-8277 
=================================


Subject: 3.10 Who is Storm Constantine? 
========================================


Another Gothic author. Storm is more Gothic and less mainstream
===============================================================
than Anne Rice. She has a series of books which have a lot in common
====================================================================
with Anne Rice's vampire chronicles. She is interested in the occult
====================================================================
and in very ancient mythology, biblical connections et cetera. Some of
======================================================================
her ideas are very controversial, often in total contradiction with most
========================================================================
well known academic research. She is published by Headline in the UK. 
======================================================================


Inception: Storm Constantine Information Service
================================================
c/o Vikki Lee France & Steve Jeffery
====================================
44 White Way
============
Kidlington, Oxon OX5 2XA
========================
England 
========


Subject: 3.11 Any other interesting goth authors? 
==================================================


There are plenty, including Bram Stoker and H.P. Lovecraft. Bram
================================================================
Stoker wrote Dracula and Lair of the White Worm amongst others. He
==================================================================
died of syphilis and was quite mad at the end. H.P. Lovecraft wrote
===================================================================
many short stories, most of which involved the Cthulhu mythos which
===================================================================
he invented. He died after a tragically short career. He had a phobia of
========================================================================
cold and was quite reclusive. He wrote a classic paper on Gothic Horror
=======================================================================
which is a must read. 
======================


Subject: 3.12 Any interesting goth movies? 
===========================================


The German Expressionists are quite Gothic and the film Nosferatu
=================================================================
(the B&W version) is considered very Gothic. The remake: Nosferatu
==================================================================
the Vampyre is also Gothic despite being in colour. The Cabinet of
==================================================================
Doctor Caligari is probably the most Gothic film of all. 
=========================================================


And of course there are the common ones, "Dracula" (in its many
===============================================================
remakes) and The Hunger staring David Bowie. 
=============================================


Subject: 3.13 Who is Andrew Eldritch, Carl McCoy, Wayne Hussey, ...? 
=====================================================================


Andrew Eldritch and Carl McCoy are the singers from The Sisters of
==================================================================
Mercy and The Fields of the Nephilim respectively. They are pillars of
======================================================================
the Goth community. Wayne Hussey was guitarist in the Sisters but he
====================================================================
left in a bad mood. He then failed to get a slice of record company
===================================================================
money allocated to the Sisters despite a court battle. He and Eldritch
======================================================================
are now reconciled personally if not musically. 
================================================


Subject: 3.14 What do Pre-Raphaelites have to do with goth? 
============================================================


The Pre-Raphaelites were an artistic movement in Victorian England.
===================================================================
They were part of the revival of Gothic architecture. Their art is
==================================================================
stunning - try and see the originals if you can. 
=================================================


Subject: 3.15 What is 'Snakebite'? 
===================================


Half a lager and half a cider. Lager is what americans would call "beer"
========================================================================
and cider is the same sort of thing made from apples basically. The
===================================================================
combination is somewhat lethal. A lot of pubs will refuse to serve it.
======================================================================
Variations: "snakebite black" - the same drink with a splash of
===============================================================
blackcurrant in it, also known as a "purple nasty" up north and is the
======================================================================
cliche goth drink (also can be prepared as snakebite and black with a
=====================================================================
pernod and a vodka in it). "red witch" - a snakebite with pernod and
====================================================================
black in - not to be taken lightly under any circumstances.
===========================================================
"Anaconda" - made with half a pint of Theakstons Old Peculiar (or
=================================================================
another real ale) and a bottle of Diamond White or 1080 (or other
=================================================================
strong dry cider), a dash of black and two straws. It can also be *real
=======================================================================
beer* and cider (i.e. ale) e.g. Theakston's Old Peculier (~5.5%) +
==================================================================
Scrumpy Jack (erm, ~5%ish), a rather entertaining mix
=====================================================